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From: Julia Lawall <julia.lawall@lip6.fr>
To: Yawar Amin <yawar.amin@gmail.com>
Cc: oliver@first.in-berlin.de, Ocaml Mailing List <caml-list@inria.fr>
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enogh of them?
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 21:54:11 +0100 (CET)
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.1811262150500.2373@hadrien> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAJbYVJJ60ss+OqJ_VdfW=gcjaSbLmJJwYG1wnBBqozd+ZMb6jw@mail.gmail.com>

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 9077 bytes --]



On Mon, 26 Nov 2018, Yawar Amin wrote:

> But you still need an OCaml compiler, right? Are you not using opam to get
> it? If you are, you already have opam. If you're not ... you will have a
> tougher time than you need to :-) opam is the recommended installation
> method by the OCaml team: http://ocaml.org/docs/install.html

Personally, I was in the end forced to install opam.  But I don't want to
force my users to install it (to figure out how to get it to work, I had
to contact a member of Gallium - and my users don't have that
opportunity).  I would prefer that they can just use the ocaml that comes
with their system package manager.

Since opam is the recommended method of installation, couldn't there at
least be provided understandable instructions?  That really seems like a
tougher time than what is necessary.

julia

>
> Regards,
>
> Yawar
>
> On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 3:34 PM Julia Lawall <julia.lawall@lip6.fr> wrote:
>
>
>       On Mon, 26 Nov 2018, Yawar Amin wrote:
>
>       > Hi Julia, I agree that we need to simplify the life of the
>       user. But that's
>       > the developer's job, not the language toolchain. Users should
>       not need to
>       > know or care about OCaml (ideally), they should download and
>       run binary
>       > packages or install them through their operating system
>       package manager.
>       > Since it's not possible for many projects to provide all
>       possible system
>       > binaries to users, the fallback should be for the user to
>       build the package
>       > with clear instructions that they'll need to install opam and
>       then
>       > `opam build` (e.g.).
>
>       Like the original poster, I would very much prefer something
>       based on
>       make.
>
>       julia
>
>       >
>       > Regards,
>       >
>       > Yawar
>       >
>       > On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 11:59 AM Julia Lawall
>       <julia.lawall@lip6.fr> wrote:
>       >
>       >
>       >       On Mon, 26 Nov 2018, Yawar Amin wrote:
>       >
>       >       > If anyone would like to chime in and say that OCaml
>       build and
>       >       packaging
>       >       > system is not that complicated, I would recommend
>       first
>       >       looking
>       >       >
>       at https://github.com/rizo/awesome-ocaml#package-management
>       >       . IMHO we need
>       >       > to seriously look at consolidating efforts around OPAM
>       for
>       >       package
>       >       > management, packaging, building, testing and running.
>       All the
>       >       serious
>       >       > language-specific package managers do it, it's a
>       proven
>       >       strategy and it
>       >       > simplifies life for the developer.
>       >
>       >       I find it odd that simplifying the life of the developer
>       is the
>       >       highest
>       >       priority.  Doesn't one want to simplify the life of the
>       user? 
>       >       Ideally the
>       >       user who has never touched OCaml before in his life?
>       >
>       >       As a simple example, the web page for installing OCaml
>       says that
>       >       the
>       >       recommended way to install ocaml is to install opam. 
>       There is a
>       >       link to a
>       >       page explaining how to install opam.  How should anyone
>       even
>       >       have
>       >       confidence that they will end up with OCaml after
>       following
>       >       those
>       >       instructions?  Even step 1 of the installation process
>       leads the
>       >       user to
>       >       confusion.
>       >
>       >       julia
>       >
>       >       >
>       >       > This could be a typical workflow:
>       >       >
>       >       > cd some-ocaml-proj
>       >       > opam install # Switches compiler if necessary and
>       installs and
>       >       locally
>       >       > caches package dependencies
>       >       > opam build
>       >       > opam run # Automatically builds if necessary
>       >       > opam test # Ditto
>       >       > opam package # Ditto; --upload option can immediately
>       upload
>       >       to opam
>       >       > opam doc # Builds documentation with ocamldoc or
>       whatever
>       >       > opam login -u user -p password
>       >       >
>       >       > Regards,
>       >       >
>       >       > Yawar
>       >       >
>       >       > On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 5:15 AM Oliver Bandel
>       >       <oliver@first.in-berlin.de>
>       >       > wrote:
>       >       >       Hello,
>       >       >
>       >       >       a while ago it looked like there were not enough
>       build-
>       >       and
>       >       >       installation-tools
>       >       >       for OCaml. I remember some discussions about
>       that.
>       >       >
>       >       >       Now it seems to me that there are a lot of them.
>       >       >       So, developers can pick the one they know about.
>       >       >
>       >       >       For all these tools there might be good reasons
>       to use
>       >       them, and
>       >       >       those
>       >       >       developers who looked at these tools and choose
>       them for
>       >       their
>       >       >       projects, will
>       >       >       know them well enough.
>       >       >
>       >       >       The situation differs, if one wants to package
>       the
>       >       written
>       >       >       software,
>       >       >       and one needs to know many of those tools, just
>       to
>       >       compile the
>       >       >       stuff.
>       >       >       So, when one just wants to compile and install
>       some
>       >       software,
>       >       >       just for that, it would take much effort to
>       learn the
>       >       different
>       >       >       build-tools.
>       >       >
>       >       >       So, packaging has become more complicated, even
>       though
>       >       for the
>       >       >       developers
>       >       >       these tools may save time.
>       >       >
>       >       >       It would be nice if people who used one of the
>       many new
>       >       building
>       >       >       tools
>       >       >       could provide a Makefile that allows just to
>       type
>       >       >       "make" and "make install", instead of expecting
>       everyone
>       >       who
>       >       >       wants to compile
>       >       >       the software to first learn
>       just-another-build-tool.
>       >       >
>       >       >       Also it would be good, to mention early, which
>       >       installation
>       >       >       tools (make-dependencies)
>       >       >       are in use, and too mention needed packages
>       (opam or
>       >       others) to
>       >       >       just build the stuff.
>       >       >
>       >       >       Thanks and regards,
>       >       >         Oliver Bandel
>       >       >
>       >       >       --
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  reply index

Thread overview: 70+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2018-11-26 10:15 Oliver Bandel
2018-11-26 16:41 ` Yawar Amin
2018-11-26 16:58   ` Julia Lawall
2018-11-26 17:16     ` Yawar Amin
2018-11-26 20:33       ` Julia Lawall
2018-11-26 20:48         ` Yawar Amin
2018-11-26 20:54           ` Julia Lawall [this message]
2018-11-26 21:19             ` Yawar Amin
2018-11-26 21:29               ` Julia Lawall
2018-11-26 22:16                 ` SP
2018-11-27  5:24                   ` Malcolm Matalka
2018-11-28  0:21                     ` SP
2018-11-27  6:11                   ` Julia Lawall
2018-11-27  8:46                     ` SF Markus Elfring
2018-11-28  0:04                     ` SP
2018-11-27  9:27                 ` SF Markus Elfring
2018-11-27 10:08                   ` Julia Lawall
2018-11-27 10:28                     ` [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enough " SF Markus Elfring
2018-11-27 10:34                       ` Julia Lawall
2018-11-27 11:05                         ` Jean-Francois Monin
2018-11-27 11:11                           ` Kakadu
2018-11-27 13:19                             ` Malcolm Matalka
2018-11-28  1:53                               ` Francois Berenger
2018-11-28 15:37                             ` Ian Zimmerman
2018-11-27 13:07                     ` [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enogh " Jean-Marc Alliot
2018-12-06 12:21               ` Richard W.M. Jones
2018-12-06 16:11                 ` Yawar Amin
2018-12-06 20:18                   ` Richard W.M. Jones
2018-12-07  7:31                     ` Daniel Bünzli
2018-12-07  7:45                       ` [Caml-list] What happened to the 'ancient' library for OCaml? Francois Berenger
2018-12-07  8:24                         ` Richard W.M. Jones
2018-12-07  8:27                       ` [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enogh of them? Richard W.M. Jones
2018-12-07  9:01                         ` Daniel Bünzli
2018-12-07 13:22                       ` Stéphane Glondu
2018-12-08  0:58                         ` Daniel Bünzli
2018-12-13 23:45                           ` SP
2018-12-11  2:47                         ` Francois Berenger
2018-12-07 13:12                     ` Malcolm Matalka
2018-11-27 14:33             ` Anil Madhavapeddy
2018-11-27 14:36     ` Gerd Stolpmann
2018-11-30 16:01   ` Louis Gesbert
2018-11-26 22:44 ` Jaap Boender
2018-11-26 22:54   ` Simon Cruanes
2018-11-27 13:29     ` Oliver Bandel
2018-11-27 13:45       ` [Caml-list] Build-/Installation tools - not enough " SF Markus Elfring
2018-11-27 15:06       ` [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enogh " Simon Cruanes
2018-11-27 15:49         ` Oliver Bandel
2018-11-27 16:27           ` Daniel Bünzli
2018-11-27 17:46             ` Jaap Boender
2018-11-28 11:48               ` Jeremie Dimino
2018-12-01 15:12                 ` [Caml-list] How to start with the curren toolset? Hendrik Boom
2018-12-01 17:07                   ` Ian Zimmerman
2018-12-02 15:27                   ` Daniel Bünzli
2018-12-02 23:36                     ` David Allsopp
2018-12-03  2:19                     ` [Caml-list] let's give a try at opam-bundle Francois Berenger
2018-12-02 17:44                   ` [Caml-list] confusing message in opam installer Hendrik Boom
2018-12-02 17:50                     ` Julia Lawall
2018-12-05 19:09                       ` Raja Boujbel - OCamlPro
2018-11-27 16:27           ` [Caml-list] Build-/Installation tools - not enough of them? SF Markus Elfring
2018-11-27 17:11           ` [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enogh " Markus Mottl
2018-11-30 12:41             ` [Caml-list] <DKIM> " Vu Ngoc San
2018-12-07 15:19             ` [Caml-list] " oliver
2018-11-27 16:52       ` Hendrik Boom
2018-11-27 14:11     ` Jaap Boender
2018-11-27  2:33   ` Francois Berenger
2018-11-27 13:31     ` Oliver Bandel
2018-11-27 13:40 ` John F Carr
2018-11-30 16:33   ` Louis Gesbert
2018-12-01  5:01     ` Louis Roché
2018-12-03  0:16     ` Edwin Török

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