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From: Julia Lawall <julia.lawall@lip6.fr>
To: Yawar Amin <yawar.amin@gmail.com>
Cc: oliver@first.in-berlin.de, Ocaml Mailing List <caml-list@inria.fr>
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enogh of them?
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 21:33:21 +0100 (CET)
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.1811262131490.2373@hadrien> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAJbYVJJkH32BKDVT7ATeF4pffa8rFcaqaGMKgk8N7knPt5sjcQ@mail.gmail.com>

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5809 bytes --]



On Mon, 26 Nov 2018, Yawar Amin wrote:

> Hi Julia, I agree that we need to simplify the life of the user. But that's
> the developer's job, not the language toolchain. Users should not need to
> know or care about OCaml (ideally), they should download and run binary
> packages or install them through their operating system package manager.
> Since it's not possible for many projects to provide all possible system
> binaries to users, the fallback should be for the user to build the package
> with clear instructions that they'll need to install opam and then
> `opam build` (e.g.).

Like the original poster, I would very much prefer something based on
make.

julia

>
> Regards,
>
> Yawar
>
> On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 11:59 AM Julia Lawall <julia.lawall@lip6.fr> wrote:
>
>
>       On Mon, 26 Nov 2018, Yawar Amin wrote:
>
>       > If anyone would like to chime in and say that OCaml build and
>       packaging
>       > system is not that complicated, I would recommend first
>       looking
>       > at https://github.com/rizo/awesome-ocaml#package-management
>       . IMHO we need
>       > to seriously look at consolidating efforts around OPAM for
>       package
>       > management, packaging, building, testing and running. All the
>       serious
>       > language-specific package managers do it, it's a proven
>       strategy and it
>       > simplifies life for the developer.
>
>       I find it odd that simplifying the life of the developer is the
>       highest
>       priority.  Doesn't one want to simplify the life of the user? 
>       Ideally the
>       user who has never touched OCaml before in his life?
>
>       As a simple example, the web page for installing OCaml says that
>       the
>       recommended way to install ocaml is to install opam.  There is a
>       link to a
>       page explaining how to install opam.  How should anyone even
>       have
>       confidence that they will end up with OCaml after following
>       those
>       instructions?  Even step 1 of the installation process leads the
>       user to
>       confusion.
>
>       julia
>
>       >
>       > This could be a typical workflow:
>       >
>       > cd some-ocaml-proj
>       > opam install # Switches compiler if necessary and installs and
>       locally
>       > caches package dependencies
>       > opam build
>       > opam run # Automatically builds if necessary
>       > opam test # Ditto
>       > opam package # Ditto; --upload option can immediately upload
>       to opam
>       > opam doc # Builds documentation with ocamldoc or whatever
>       > opam login -u user -p password
>       >
>       > Regards,
>       >
>       > Yawar
>       >
>       > On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 5:15 AM Oliver Bandel
>       <oliver@first.in-berlin.de>
>       > wrote:
>       >       Hello,
>       >
>       >       a while ago it looked like there were not enough build-
>       and
>       >       installation-tools
>       >       for OCaml. I remember some discussions about that.
>       >
>       >       Now it seems to me that there are a lot of them.
>       >       So, developers can pick the one they know about.
>       >
>       >       For all these tools there might be good reasons to use
>       them, and
>       >       those
>       >       developers who looked at these tools and choose them for
>       their
>       >       projects, will
>       >       know them well enough.
>       >
>       >       The situation differs, if one wants to package the
>       written
>       >       software,
>       >       and one needs to know many of those tools, just to
>       compile the
>       >       stuff.
>       >       So, when one just wants to compile and install some
>       software,
>       >       just for that, it would take much effort to learn the
>       different
>       >       build-tools.
>       >
>       >       So, packaging has become more complicated, even though
>       for the
>       >       developers
>       >       these tools may save time.
>       >
>       >       It would be nice if people who used one of the many new
>       building
>       >       tools
>       >       could provide a Makefile that allows just to type
>       >       "make" and "make install", instead of expecting everyone
>       who
>       >       wants to compile
>       >       the software to first learn just-another-build-tool.
>       >
>       >       Also it would be good, to mention early, which
>       installation
>       >       tools (make-dependencies)
>       >       are in use, and too mention needed packages (opam or
>       others) to
>       >       just build the stuff.
>       >
>       >       Thanks and regards,
>       >         Oliver Bandel
>       >
>       >       --
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>
>

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  reply index

Thread overview: 70+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2018-11-26 10:15 Oliver Bandel
2018-11-26 16:41 ` Yawar Amin
2018-11-26 16:58   ` Julia Lawall
2018-11-26 17:16     ` Yawar Amin
2018-11-26 20:33       ` Julia Lawall [this message]
2018-11-26 20:48         ` Yawar Amin
2018-11-26 20:54           ` Julia Lawall
2018-11-26 21:19             ` Yawar Amin
2018-11-26 21:29               ` Julia Lawall
2018-11-26 22:16                 ` SP
2018-11-27  5:24                   ` Malcolm Matalka
2018-11-28  0:21                     ` SP
2018-11-27  6:11                   ` Julia Lawall
2018-11-27  8:46                     ` SF Markus Elfring
2018-11-28  0:04                     ` SP
2018-11-27  9:27                 ` SF Markus Elfring
2018-11-27 10:08                   ` Julia Lawall
2018-11-27 10:28                     ` [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enough " SF Markus Elfring
2018-11-27 10:34                       ` Julia Lawall
2018-11-27 11:05                         ` Jean-Francois Monin
2018-11-27 11:11                           ` Kakadu
2018-11-27 13:19                             ` Malcolm Matalka
2018-11-28  1:53                               ` Francois Berenger
2018-11-28 15:37                             ` Ian Zimmerman
2018-11-27 13:07                     ` [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enogh " Jean-Marc Alliot
2018-12-06 12:21               ` Richard W.M. Jones
2018-12-06 16:11                 ` Yawar Amin
2018-12-06 20:18                   ` Richard W.M. Jones
2018-12-07  7:31                     ` Daniel Bünzli
2018-12-07  7:45                       ` [Caml-list] What happened to the 'ancient' library for OCaml? Francois Berenger
2018-12-07  8:24                         ` Richard W.M. Jones
2018-12-07  8:27                       ` [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enogh of them? Richard W.M. Jones
2018-12-07  9:01                         ` Daniel Bünzli
2018-12-07 13:22                       ` Stéphane Glondu
2018-12-08  0:58                         ` Daniel Bünzli
2018-12-13 23:45                           ` SP
2018-12-11  2:47                         ` Francois Berenger
2018-12-07 13:12                     ` Malcolm Matalka
2018-11-27 14:33             ` Anil Madhavapeddy
2018-11-27 14:36     ` Gerd Stolpmann
2018-11-30 16:01   ` Louis Gesbert
2018-11-26 22:44 ` Jaap Boender
2018-11-26 22:54   ` Simon Cruanes
2018-11-27 13:29     ` Oliver Bandel
2018-11-27 13:45       ` [Caml-list] Build-/Installation tools - not enough " SF Markus Elfring
2018-11-27 15:06       ` [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enogh " Simon Cruanes
2018-11-27 15:49         ` Oliver Bandel
2018-11-27 16:27           ` Daniel Bünzli
2018-11-27 17:46             ` Jaap Boender
2018-11-28 11:48               ` Jeremie Dimino
2018-12-01 15:12                 ` [Caml-list] How to start with the curren toolset? Hendrik Boom
2018-12-01 17:07                   ` Ian Zimmerman
2018-12-02 15:27                   ` Daniel Bünzli
2018-12-02 23:36                     ` David Allsopp
2018-12-03  2:19                     ` [Caml-list] let's give a try at opam-bundle Francois Berenger
2018-12-02 17:44                   ` [Caml-list] confusing message in opam installer Hendrik Boom
2018-12-02 17:50                     ` Julia Lawall
2018-12-05 19:09                       ` Raja Boujbel - OCamlPro
2018-11-27 16:27           ` [Caml-list] Build-/Installation tools - not enough of them? SF Markus Elfring
2018-11-27 17:11           ` [Caml-list] Build-/Installation-Tools - not enogh " Markus Mottl
2018-11-30 12:41             ` [Caml-list] <DKIM> " Vu Ngoc San
2018-12-07 15:19             ` [Caml-list] " oliver
2018-11-27 16:52       ` Hendrik Boom
2018-11-27 14:11     ` Jaap Boender
2018-11-27  2:33   ` Francois Berenger
2018-11-27 13:31     ` Oliver Bandel
2018-11-27 13:40 ` John F Carr
2018-11-30 16:33   ` Louis Gesbert
2018-12-01  5:01     ` Louis Roché
2018-12-03  0:16     ` Edwin Török

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